Category: the Rant Board
So after checking out a few ultraportable laptops and getting all confused, I found this site.
http://www.myproductadvisor.com/mpa/laptop/inputSummary.do
It seemed to be perfect! It enabled me to choose what was important to me, what I wanted in a laptop, and then it would make recommendations on what I needed. The only thing they forgot is to make the fucking page accessible! I tried it with JFW and Hal and it just wouldn't work right. You're supposed to choose which features are the most desirable, undesirable etc. Well, where are the check boxes or radio buttons to do that? Do you just choose one and that's considered important? And whe way JFW (forget Hal on this one, it was totally lost) reads this one is terrible, "on mouse over 1 lb" and such What the hell is that supposed to mean? Sorry, I'm just sick to death of inaccessible sites, things that everyone else can use and take for granted that of course, someone with a screen reader can't do/read. I understand graphics and such, even though they piss me off, but choosing something on a webpage shouldn't be that hard!. Ok, rante over. And now I have to change back to Hal because JFW is acting up, as if that's something new.
I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm getting a lap top for Christmas since my desk top broke. Dell is the best computer ever. Mom and Chad my brother had them build my old computer for me. I hope they are building my new computer as well. Check them out at www.dell.com There web site works with Jaws. Mom let me load Nvda on her computer since she is allowing me to borrow hers until my new computer arrives. Nvda seems to be more stable than Jaws. Maybe you may like this screen reader, plus it's free.
we just need to learn that certain websites are not accessible.
That's just the way it is.
Or jujst lobby people, Haha! Any thought on how flash ruins websites for people with screen readers?
Depends on how the Flash is done...Also, from what I've been able to find out Dell sucks for tech support. They had a friend reload their system, and then half way through they had to get off the phone because it was time to leave work. Someone was suppose to call back, and they never did, so, they ended up paying someone to properly reload the system. I personally like Gateway. The site is accessible too. *smile* And I've had good luck with my gateway laptop and tech support.
Flash can prove to be quite accessible if done correctly.
Flash is anoying regardless.
the problem with this is that websites r supposed to be accessible to all, no matter sighted or nonsighted. there is a website that i used to go on. it is accessible, but when i go to download some music off of it, i run into a captcha immage. i informed the webmaster about this, but he insisted on keeping the captcha immages there even though i had an account on the site. i can understand using captcha to prevent people who didnt have accounts on the site from downloading the music from it, but people with accounts? that is just plain stupid to still have a captcha immage. i informed the webmaster that if he didnt do anything about it that i would leave the site. i actually have a blog post about it on that site. i will copy it and paste it here. if i can find the emails that i sent to the webmaster, i will post them here as well because i am sick of not getting what i want from that site.
I agree that it is rediculous.
However, the webmasters could care less if you remove your account or not.
over here, if you're not accessible, you're screed. and i mean like legally. at least that's my understanding. we have a right to information as much as sighties, so i have to disagree with margurp's just accepting things the way they are. something needs to be done to root out accessibility as muc as is possible.
here here! right on! i am going to hound that lazy khmer mother fuucker until he yealds and does what i ask of him. to make that damn captcha accessible! or replace it with something easier.
I agree that something should be done but I'm just being realistic.
yeah! and the braillenote can't read flash, it just says "embedded object:bla/bla/bla.swf" or whatever.
true. the m-power does the same thing.
It doesn't have support for that stuff.
Yeah I hate it when fuckin' websites are inaccessible too. Like there's this one radio station we have over here in Winnipeg called Q94. Well anyway, they used to be accessible, but when they changed their website provider to Rainy Day, a local company here, they're totally inaccessible. Like all I see on the website is text and unlabeled buttons, so all I hear from Window Eyes is the text and just a plain button. I dunno who their webmaster is but I was thinkin' of callin' into the station and makin' the suggestion that they should become more accessible. Like there's this one contest that I wanna enter in called Beat The Bank, where you win money, and I wanna register so that they call me but again, I run into that inaccessible road block. It's stupid. I dunno if Jaws would read 'em, but yet again, websites should be accessible to all screen readers. And I also disagree on the fact that we should learn to accept that not all sites are accessible 'cause that's a bunch of bullshit right there. Websites should be accessible to us. I dunno if there's a human rights issue about that but there should be.
I, too, feel that we are being discriminated against when we can't use certain sites. Today I found a health and fitness forum that I am interested in joining, but in order to do anything, whether it be doing a search, or even just sending an email to the administrator, you had to do some stupid image verification thing. I wrote an email to the admin explaining the inaccessibility of the site to those who are visually impaired, but as I said, I had to have someone help me with the image verification, and couldn't even send the email by myself. I havent' received any reply yet, but I hope I do. I just don't think it's fair that there are sites that are inaccessible to those who use screen readers. We have every right to look at the same materials as everyone else, and it's a shame that people don't take us into consideration.
Website inaccessibility is so dang stupid! I agree with most of what's been said. We do have the right to use the same websites, software, and materials as the sighted! I believe it's discrimination! I also hate inaccessible software! I downloaded a self support program for my computer that's supposed to troubleshoot internet problems, and the program was so inaccessible!
I agree with you there, I think there should be a law saying that if you have been warned three times about your website not being accessible, it gets automattically taken down!
I never did get a reply to the email I sent about that health/fitness forum that isn't accessible. I think that is so rude. It's unbelievable how disrespectful people can be.
graphic312413672513.gif, on mouse over 13234152/fc.jpg . I hate this too. Well not hate but I find it particularly annoying. More so, when there are no alternatives to that website. I guess most of them nowadays have something that says "if you are visually impaired contact customer support". Others actually have some questions that you have to get answered. Others are this huge chunky board filled with images that "little kids love" so that everyone can "click" away. Nevertheless i have seen some change from about 8 years ago on many websites. Some of them ahve keyboard shortcuts and others have text only versions. I really would encourage sites to have a text only version or something realted to a site. I can understand that some people would like the site to "look coool" and so it'd be hard for them to accept changes.
I also think that web masters need to take us in to consideration, or we as blind people have the right to shut them down!
It isn't nice to single people out just because they can't see the stuff, and as for captchas, there should be a law saying that it is required to make the captchas accessible. please subscribe to the blind access jurnal, they talk about that.
the really sucky thing about this is that the web was originally not only really accessible but the general attitude was one of sharing information and most people were open to modifying their sites when they found out they were not so accessible. With the advent of comercialism on the web, well, we get access to things that used to exist only in print, but there are many many sites, especially blogs where the goal is not commercial but that good old fashioned sharing of information and communication that are nonetheless completely blocked because of complete inaccessibility or the creeping captia syndrome. and ther is often no alternative - sites that will sign you up or let you in manually if you can't view the visual captia or hear the audio ones are few and far between. When it comes to access, there is absolutely no excuse - information about how to creat an accessible web site is all over the place from the standards of the w3c consortion's web access initiative to many of the textbooks that deal with web design in general, and to the classes and pages of the html writer's guild. When it come stio the captia problem most people who implement their use have no idea they are doing something that blocks some of us out but their use is becoming so standard that when you figure out a way to even begin to comunicate with the owner of a web site - if you can even accomplish communication without being able to copy a graphic, they just don't know what to do. Word Press, where I have a blog, uses some other form of security and it is completely seamless and accessible so I don't really know what the problem is. And the truth is any security system that depends on a specific body part or the use of one will exclude *somebody*. If the starting point is that security can't depend on use or existance of a specific body part then all this stuff wouldn't be developed in the first place and the energy that went into it would have gone into something else.
One thing we can do is to not use these sites when we have a choice. We dont' have any real alternative to using paypal and they are pretty bad about this, but It totally befuddles me how many blindness related email lists use yahoogroups which is one of the worst perpetuators of "all captia all the time" while other sites that offer free email lists and related services in the past have had other security methods or at least the ability to have a human get you through fairly expediently. Yahoo has none of that and requires constant copying of captia for some of their services. Google with their new googlegroups offerings has an audio alternative. I can't use most of the audio captia having just a minor hearing loss but with google when I couldn't access the captia I was signed up manually by following a clearly labelled link just for that purpose and it was quick and easy. Well, google has a commitment to becoming more accessible and yahoo doesn't. If blind people pulled the blindness-related email lists from yahoo and encouraged all the non-blindness related email lists we are on to leave also, and let it be known why, that is one area where we probably could have an impact. that's besides pushing it as a legal issue.
I have found that yahoo has their captcha accessible via audio.
Raylo, I totally agree with everything you said! There should be a law saying that websites and other material should be accessable! I went on this one site, and it required the use of a mouse! I think web design is so pathetic these days!
And if they don't like it, they need to deal with it, because as they say it's a way of life.
There are actually some laws that deal with web access and I guess we have to use them because every time some designer has to re-do their work that's one more person out there in the pool of web desginers that won't screw up the next time whoever they work for.
In the US section 508 is known to govern federal web sites but I've just been reading about it's application to the states and really, it seems like it should apply to all state agency web sites but some states have specific laws applying it. Like it seems here in New York there is specific attention the the application of 508 to state agency web sites and I certainly keep running into inaccessible forms and the like courtesy of my state and I think I even know where to lodge the appropriate complaints. Next thing is to figure out if it's been applied to private organizations that have federal contracts - like all the organizations that are in on the medicare prescription drug program. Actually, it seems that should include most colleges and universities and lot os other places I haven't thought of as well as city and local governments. Have to do more research.
I know in Canada there is some kind of law that deals with access to government web sites. NOt sure about other countries.
I think it should be to all websites no matter if they are private or government.
Inaccesible web sites are very annoying. Generally webmasters don't care, but if you can find a way to show them how making their site accessible would be in their own best interest, usually you can get them to make changes.
Margorp, no, not every site will be accessible, but that doesn't mean we just sit back and accept it. Heck, if we just sat bakc and said, "that's the way it is," and didn't push for change, blind people would still be back in the stone ages.
However, there is another thing that annoys me just as much as inaccessible web sites. I've seen many a blind person gripe about how a site is inaccessible, when the problem really is that that blind person doesn't know how to use their own screen reading software. It's like, learn to use JAWS, or WindowEyes, or Hal, whatever your screen reader of choice thoroughly and well, before you start pointing the finger at inaccessibility. Or people who don't understand the difference between something being cluttered, and totally unusable. I've seen sites that are a bit cluttered, and blind folks are screaming inaccessibility, when the thing is totally usable, if you know how to navigate around the extraneous things.
Bottom line, we should fight when something is inaccessible. But make sure it actually is, not just user error.
I agree, but I'm very happy that Yahoo got busted for their non audio captchas. they now have them there, and it sounds clear.
I'm glad yahoo got busted too. It's good to fight for accessibility. One thing that's just as bad as inaccessible sites, is inaccessible programs! I downloaded this website builder that claimed to be easy and free. But when I installed it, I found out that it required the use of a mouse, and it wasn't usable with jaws.
I think things that require a mouse need to be made accessible.
I agree with that.
Well, there are many things to consider here though.
Firstly is the legal enforcement, see, for instance NFB vs Target law suit, I wrote a short legal paper on that for a business law course, I hpe that NFB wins and that web presence will also fall under the ADA, that's basically the issue. This will only really benefit big companies with physical locations at first, I think, but it will set the norm and others will follow.
Also I think there's training and information. Accessibility needs to become a part of a web developers training, part of any standardized web development schools, W3C and others, that's something we need to push for.
Thirdly there's our part, screen readers and users. I wish there was some kind of a community where you could upload bookmarks or custom labels for inaccessible web sites, so that somehow the template could be downloaded by other users and they could use them for the web site. I think that'd be a major step. Also screen reader companies must do their bit to make the web as accessible as possible (they've done a fair bit really).
Finally we must know how to use our software to the best of its abilities.
I don't think a web site can be taken down, especially a non profit one, if you are not paying for the service t's hard to request that others will not be able to enjoy it because you can't. I don't think it's the way to go but I think we must notify people of our inaccessibility issues as often as possible and try to create awareness.
Sure, initially the web was fully accessible, but then there were no shopping cards, no chat, few stores, the web content has increased in both style but, fortunately, also in content, so it's not all doom and gloom.
I totally agree with SisterDawn. Inaccessibility is a problem, but a bigger problem seems to be blind people that don't know how to use their screen reading software. But it really is frustrating when you contact a webmaster because of inaccessibility issues, and they brush you aside. I used to belong to a site that had a Captcha image every time you wanted to send a private message. I contacted the webmaster about it, and he really didn't seem interested.
there is this one site that my friend referred me to in order to get music. it is a site where u have to break a captcha in order to download even one song. the site is accessible, but getting in touch with the tech support is not. so what i did was type support@spiralfrog.com directly into my email program and sent them a very well written, very well thought email reguarding the captcha. i have not received a reply back from them yet.
I got one for you guys. I belong to a site that I believe is ran by the same people who run MySpace...It's a great site if you enjoy wrestling. However, if you visit a profile and the individual has music selected you can't turn it off. I tried hitting escape...I tried turning off sounds in the Web page through Internet options, and nothing worked. I tried contacting the Web master, and I never got a response. If any of you like wrestling and want the address just let me know. It's completely accessible; or almost. I had to have help signing up for it because of the captia crap, but otherwise, it's great. The more complaints maybe the more they'll see a reason to change things...Also, here is another one...Captia isn't as secure as Web masters think. I have Web space, and was given a simple way to prevent bots and all that crap without making my site inaccessible. However, it only works with PHP forms...I'll copy the info that the Web host has about it if anyone is interested...IE what they say about the different security schemes and why this one was chosen. *smile*
That's one thing I don't like, contacting web masters! They rarely reply to your emails, and push you aside. There was this one time, I was signing up for a site called blind planet! It did have some type of captcha. It was a question you had to answer. I was surprised! The only problem there was an error in the site data base, I believe, and it said the answer was incorrect. So, I contacted the site developer, and he got back to me right away! He created my account for me, when I sent a username and password in an email. That was the first time I succeeded contacting a website developer, and the first accessible captcha!
I came across alot of inaccessible sites today while searching for sites for social networking and friends. The sites themselves were mostly accessible but they all had a captia and no audio or alternative. I also hate the ones that simply say call in. Why should I have to call someone to do something that everyone else could do on their own? But the best ones are "if you can't see this image, click the refresh button in your browser". Um, ok, maybe that's not the reason why I can't see the image! Btw, I'm sooooo glad that yahoo got busted. I had no idea! I'm going to check this out now, very very happy, since I've been bitching about them for years. Wonder if they put up a good one or a crappy one like AOL? Btw, for the best audio captia on the net, check out any craigslist.org site and try to post. They're totally amazing and should be commended. I think we should also write when we see really good sites and things being done. Finally, I'll leave you guys with a thought. While sites can be made accessible for the blind, what about the deafblind who can't use audio captia?
You've got a point about the deafblind, they should create some kind of capcha that braille displays can pick up on. But anyway, that's not why I'm replyin' to this, I'm replyin' to the one about downloadin' music and programs that are inaccessible. Another program that I find has to improve on their accessibility is Lime Wire. Since Bear Share isn't free anymore, I'm stuck with Lime Wire. But anyway, I've tried runnin' it with Window-Eyes and it doesn't work. As a matter of fact, all it says is custom control. Hell, you can't even use Window-Eyes' mouse pointer commands on it. By the way, for people that say that Bear Share is free if you select an earlier version, no it ain't. I used to have 5.2 on my system, the light version, and I get a dialog box that Window-Eyes won't read after I try and download somethin'. But I'm guessin' that the dialog box is sayin' to upgrade or pay however it is a month to use the service.
Captcha, I hate that word! I've found some very good free web hosting services, but that captcha was a big roadblock! Captcha for the deaf blind, that's a good question.
I hate capcha too, but I'm glad that there's sites that have audio capcha like Paypal. The only thing that Paypal should do is make the audio capcha a bit clearer.
For Bearshare, when it asks you to upgrade to a newer version, just click "cancel" and your old version should open. This is an annoyance, but it's what I've been doing for the last couple of months. However, Bearshare does seem to have a lot of bad files! If your download comes through instantly, it's probably a bad one. I usually wait a bit, until it tells me there are more than one result, then download. That typically works.
So, would someone be kind enough to post a good explanation of why captcha is a problem... something informative and respectfully written, that would be a guide as to how we should approach contacting site owners? I find these kinds of messages tough to formulate because when I encounter this problem, I'm always too angry to think clearly!
yes, to the person who said that users need to learn how to use their screenreaders, i agree completely. One thing that i have seen, is the program Itunes. Every blind person that I've talked to, says "o it sucks. its not accessible?" Really? works fine for me. All I have to do is use my JAWS cursor, and BAM! works just fine. Limewire isn't accessible for JAWS either, i've tried it at least twice.
Tom the owner of myspace don't give a shit, that's the bottom line.
Anyone heard of captcha killer? I've not used it yet but looks cool
www.captchakiller.com
Troy
what will it do?
all sites are not accessible but just be thankful fior the ones that are.
sounds like it will allow you to bypass inaccessible captias on web sites that have them.
Yeah well I have to add somethin' about usin' your Jaws cursor to find stuff. All I have to say to that is you can't be so ignorant about other screen readers, other people have other screen readers esides Jaws, like me. I'm a proud Window Eyes user but that shouldn't mean a damn thing. Websites and programs like Lime Wire should be accessible regardless of what screen reader you use.
There's a lot on CAPTCHA at http://www.blindaccessjournal.com. Check out, and thanks for the prior mention of the journal.
We certainly shouldn't simply accept inaccessibility. When something has an inaccessible CAPTCHA, or other barrier, you're basically being told that you're not allowed because you're a blind person.
When encountering these issues, simply send a respectful note to the site's support staff or webmaster asking for improved access. In the case of CAPTCHA, there's no longer any excuse for there not being at least an audio CAPTCHA, as there's this neat turnkey service called ReCAPTCHA.net that enables any webmaster to add both an audio and visual CAPTCHA without rolling their own solution. No excuses at all for the "no blind people allowed" signs.
Finally, no, it is never a good idea for us to just accept inaccessibility. We should start out with respectful private communications with the appropriate people involved in the situation, then come to the online connected blind community for further advocacy when the initial attempts are ignored.
Captain CAPTCHA signing out for now, over and out... :-)
I'm gonna check this site out. thanks.